{"id":1112,"date":"2025-10-02T04:02:45","date_gmt":"2025-10-02T04:02:45","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.thebrokeronline.eu\/one-of-many-gdp-debates\/"},"modified":"2025-10-02T04:02:45","modified_gmt":"2025-10-02T04:02:45","slug":"one-of-many-gdp-debates","status":"publish","type":"page","link":"https:\/\/www.thebrokeronline.eu\/blogs\/global-green-economics\/one-of-many-gdp-debates\/","title":{"rendered":"One Of Many Gdp Debates"},"content":{"rendered":"<section class=\"content column wide left blog_post content view\" id=\"content\">\n<article class=\"fader\">\n<header class=\"contents\">\n<div class=\"share\">\n\t\t\t<script type=\"text\/javascript\">\n    var addthis_config = {\n        ui_language = 'en'\n    }\n<\/script><\/p>\n<div class=\"addthis sharing\">\n\t<!-- AddThis Button BEGIN --><\/p>\n<div class=\"addthis_toolbox addthis_default_style addthis_32x32_style\" addthis:title=\"One of many GDP debates\">\n\t<a class=\"addthis_button_twitter\" tw:via=\"thebrokeronline\"><\/a><br \/>\n\t<a class=\"addthis_button_facebook\"><\/a><br \/>\n\t<a class=\"addthis_button_pinterest_share\"><\/a><br \/>\n\t<a class=\"addthis_button_preferred_4\"><\/a><br \/>\n\t<a class=\"addthis_button_compact\"><\/a><br \/>\n\t<a class=\"addthis_counter addthis_bubble_style\"><\/a>\n\t<\/div>\n<p>\t<script type=\"text\/javascript\">var addthis_config = data_track_addressbar;<\/script><br \/>\n\t<script type=\"text\/javascript\" src=\"https:\/\/www.thebrokeronline.eu\/files\/js\/300\/addthis_widget.js\"><\/script><br \/>\n\t<!-- AddThis Button END -->\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"addthis article_options\">\n\t\t<!-- \n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<a href=\"https:\/\/www.thebrokeronline.eu\/mandrill\/subscription\/add\/6334\/6369\">Subscribe<\/a>\n\t\t\t\t -->\n    \t\t\t\t<\/div>\n<\/p><\/div>\n<h1>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\tOne of many GDP debates<br \/>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/h1>\n<div class=\"clear\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"pubDate\">\n\t\t<a href=\"https:\/\/www.thebrokeronline.eu\/experts-and-authors\/green-tom\/\">Tom Green<\/a>\t\t|<br \/>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t26 March 2025\n\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n<\/header>\n<div class=\"body contents\">\n\t<!-- body --><\/p>\n<p class=\"yunu3cvqabft7vifv\">\n<p class=\"yunu3cvqabft7vifv\">\nI\u00b4m new at blogging and perhaps its best to learn the ropes at a conference where the discussions don\u00b4t quite go so late. On our first day, the last panel wrapped up around 10:00 pm and dinner finished just shy of midnight. Our plenary sessions are taking place in the University of Barcelona\u00b4s grand Paranimf auditorium, where we are surrounded by immense tableaus of scenes that appear to depict key moments in the human voyage towards greater knowledge. In several of these paintings, there is a globe that appears key to what is being discovered or debated. Were a painting of this current gathering to be commissioned, a globe would very likely feature in the composition, symbolizing our trying to figure out how to belatedly acknowledge and live with the Earth\u00b4s limits. But in the older paintings above us, as in many of these disscussions over the years, what equally stands out is who is not included in the scene and who dominates the decision-making. Women, the poor, those who work on the land or live within forests are mostly invisible, a theme that is raised by a number of the speakers.<br class=\"yunu3cvqabft7vifv\"\/><br \/>\n&nbsp;<br class=\"yunu3cvqabft7vifv\"\/><br \/>\nThe speakers who provide the official welcome from the University of Barcelona, himself a scholar in the field of finance, assures us that another world is possible&#8211;I wonder if the official welcome at my own university back in Canada would be so bold. I am struck by how it seems that European speakers see a much greater degree of change being possible than North Americans, who in general seem to see our political system as being largely captured by a small business elite. For the rest of the afternoon and evening, we struggle with which other world it is that we are aiming for and how likely is it that there is a viable path from here to there, without getting stuck in some catastrophic dystopia as a result of trying to flip from growth depenedence to limits respecting. There\u00b4s so much I could possibly comment on, so I\u00b4ll jump into one of the controversies.<br class=\"yunu3cvqabft7vifv\"\/><br \/>\n&nbsp;<br class=\"yunu3cvqabft7vifv\"\/><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.thebrokeronline.eu\" target=\"_blank\">Jeroen van den Bergh<\/a>, an ecological economist whose papers I\u00b4ve often found insightful, claims that in the degrowth discourse, he\u00b4s seen at least 5 different interpretations of degrowth. The first he identifies is GDP degrowth, which is the most logical interpretation for those new to the concept (especially, I would think, economists hearing of the term for the first time). Deliberate GDP degrowth might well reduce some environmental impacts (as in how CO2 emissions fell with the global recession), but it is a very blunt instrument and we could end up with dirty degrowth (a big fear of mine, how does a government with reduced tax income invest in transit infrastructure and environmental remediation that is so urgently needed, how do we avoid the types of situations which occured in Eastern Canada, where high energy prices lead some people to try heating by burning old tires). For Jeroen, composition of GDP is more important than size. <br class=\"yunu3cvqabft7vifv\"\/><br \/>\n&nbsp;<br class=\"yunu3cvqabft7vifv\"\/><br \/>\nThe second form of degrowth according to Jeroen is consumption degrowth, a reduction in quantity, not value terms. This he argued is ineffective and inefficient. There are two approaches to this type of degrowth, the first being voluntary frugality which is difficult because it is hard to get people on board when they see super consumers around them defeating efforts to go easy on the planet. The second involves setting consumption quotas, which immediately makes one think communism and as a result this type of degrowth is not likely to be politically feasible.<br class=\"yunu3cvqabft7vifv\"\/><br \/>\n&nbsp;<br class=\"yunu3cvqabft7vifv\"\/><br \/>\nThe third from of degrowth&#8211;here I may have missed part of the arguement&#8211; involves implementing radical change in the economy, the grand ideas form of degrowth, a sharing, caring, limits respecting future. But Jeroen sees here too much idealism for this transformation to occur and not enough time to do it in, given the climate and other crises that are already upon us.<br class=\"yunu3cvqabft7vifv\"\/><br \/>\n&nbsp;<br class=\"yunu3cvqabft7vifv\"\/><br \/>\nThe fourth kind is physical degrowth, a reduction in the throughput of energy and natural resources. It assumes that reducing throughput will result in GDP degrowth. This for Jeroen is merely putting a new label on an idea that Herman Daly and others have long advanced.<br class=\"yunu3cvqabft7vifv\"\/><br \/>\n&nbsp;<br class=\"yunu3cvqabft7vifv\"\/><br \/>\nFinally, degrowth can also be seen as a deliberate opposition to the growth fetishism that so influences political decisions. In this version of the degrowth discourse, GDP is the fundamental problem that must be attacked.<br class=\"yunu3cvqabft7vifv\"\/><br \/>\n&nbsp;<br class=\"yunu3cvqabft7vifv\"\/><br \/>\nNow I like Jeroen\u00b4s attempt to breakdown the different versions of degrowth and to seek to clarify what we are talking about. But then he concluded that it is not useful to spend more time criticizing growth or GDP and explained that he himself is very growth agnostic. Indeed, he suggested that we might want to follow Serge Latouche\u00b4s suggestion that we should talk of &quot;a-growth&quot; in the same way &quot;a-theism&quot; emerged, and abandon our faith in GDP as being something worthy of guiding human affairs. The problem with degrowth is that it gives growth too much credibility. Jeroen\u00b4s parting recommendation, which basically distills down to relax about growth and degrowth and focus instead on implementing the measures that will induce systemic change in the economy and get us on a more sustainable path, did not find a very warm reception. Indeed, the panel moderator, <a href=\"https:\/\/www.thebrokeronline.eu\" target=\"_blank\">Giorgos Kallis<\/a> of L&#8217;Institut de Ci\u00e8ncia i Tecnologia Ambientals, temporarily stepped out of his role as moderator and defended the need for degrowth. Perhaps in part in reaction to Jeroen\u00b4s talk, the speakers that followed tended to spell out their understanding of degrowth. Many reasons were put forward as for why continued attacks on GDP as a guiding societal indicator were needed.<br class=\"yunu3cvqabft7vifv\"\/><br \/>\n&nbsp;<br class=\"yunu3cvqabft7vifv\"\/>And so I run off to the Saturday morning sessions, leaving many illuminating moments unmentioned<\/p>\n<\/p>\n<p class=\"yunu3cvqabft7vifv\">\n<p>\t\t<!-- body -->\n\t<\/div>\n<\/article>\n<div class=\"clear\"><\/div>\n<section class=\"commentform content column wide left\">\n<div class=\"disqus_content\">\n\t\t\t<a name=\"comments\" id=\"comments\"><\/a><\/p>\n<div id=\"disqus_thread\"><\/div>\n<p>\t\t\t<script type=\"text\/javascript\">\n\t\t\t\t\/* * * CONFIGURATION VARIABLES: EDIT BEFORE PASTING INTO YOUR WEBPAGE * * *\/\n\t\t\t\tvar disqus_shortname = 'broker'; \/\/ required: replace example with your forum shortname\n\t\t\t\tvar disqus_identifier = '4846';\n\t\t\t\t\/* * * DON'T EDIT BELOW THIS LINE * * *\/\n\t\t\t\tfunction trackComment(comment)\n\t\t\t\t{\n\t\t\t\t\tconsole.log(comment);\n\t\t\t\t}\n\t\t\t\tfunction disqus_config() {\n\t\t\t\t\tthis.callbacks.onNewComment = [function() { \n\t\t\t\t\tconsole.log(comment);\n\t\t\t\t\t}];\n\t\t\t\t}\n\t\t\t\t(function() {\n\t\t\t\t\tvar dsq = document.createElement('script'); dsq.type = 'text\/javascript'; dsq.async = true;\n\t\t\t\t\tdsq.src = '\/\/' + disqus_shortname + 'https:\/\/www.thebrokeronline.eu\/files\/blogs\/global-green-economics\/.disqus.com\/embed.js';\n\t\t\t\t\t(document.getElementsByTagName('head')[0] || document.getElementsByTagName('body')[0]).appendChild(dsq);\n\t\t\t\t})();\n\t\t\t<\/script><br \/>\n\t\t\t<!--\n\t\t\t<noscript>Please enable JavaScript to view the <a href=\"http:\/\/disqus.com\/?ref_noscript\">comments powered by Disqus.<\/a><\/noscript>\n\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/disqus.com\" class=\"dsq-brlink\">comments powered by <span class=\"logo-disqus\">Disqus<\/span><\/a>\n\t\t\t-->\n\t\t<\/div>\n<\/section>\n<\/section>\n","protected":false,"raw":""},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>One of many GDP debates Tom Green | 26 [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":0,"featured_media":0,"parent":0,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"template_2.php","meta":{"footnotes":""},"class_list":["post-1112","page","type-page","status-publish","hentry"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v24.2 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>One of many GDP debates \/ Global green economics \/ Blogs - The Broker<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"I\u00c2\u00b4m new at blogging and perhaps its best to learn the ropes at a conference where the discussions don\u00c2\u00b4t quite go so late. 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